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[fantomena]

I played a bit of Atomicrops, got a preview key from Raw Fury, have 24 min playtime I think.

It was fun the first 15 min, then got repetive and boring. Don't know how I managed 24 min actually.

Edit: I just checked, it was 8 min playtime. Even worse. Thought it was longer,

 

[bobnowhere]

Just toeing the party line, nothing interesting to see.

Bog standard indie copy of other indie games barely makes and impact and they are looking for someone to blame.

 

[fantomena]

Does this Tweet mean that there is some truth to those numbers from the play tracker as he didn't say anything like "those numbers aren't accurate"?

 

[Wok]

Does this Tweet mean that there is some truth to those numbers from the play tracker as he didn't say anything like "those numbers aren't accurate"?

No, it was more like a "learn to read the tile of the graph" tweet. It does not imply anything else.

 

[fantomena]

No, it was more like a "learn to read the tile of the graph" tweet.

So in other words, a lot of people waited for the Steam version of RDR 2 instead of buying the EGS version.

And of course, some people bought it via Rockstar themself.

 

[Wok]

Maybe, but you cannot infer that from the tweet.

The first dude posts a picture about EGS exclusives, and concludes that RDR2 sold less copies that Untitled Goose Game

The second dude points out that the first dude should learn to read the title of the plot before drawing logical conclusions.

Edit:

 

[fantomena]

Maybe, but you cannot infer that from the tweet.

Well that's what I take from the numbers.

 

[lashman]

Well that's what I take from the numbers.

then don't ... LittleDinamit wasn't even tracking RDR2 because there's no way to tell which store the game was bought on using the xbox api thingy ... they all appear as the same app ... that's why it's not on the list, not because it sold less than 150k on egs

 

[fantomena]

then don't ... LittleDinamit wasn't even tracking RDR2 because there's no way to tell which store the game was bought on using the xbox api thingy ... they all appear as the same app ... that's why it's not on the list, not because it sold less than 150k on egs

Ah ok, that makes more sense. Didn't even know the tracker didn't even track RDR2.

 

[Wok]

Basically, this:

Red Dead Redemption 2 sold 408k units on the Epic Games Store in its first month

Red Dead Redemption 2 launched on PC last month on both the Rockstar Games launcher and the Epic Games Store, with the …

www.gamesindustry.biz

Why RDR2 is not on that chart?

The data is based off of Xbox app numbers. R* and EGS versions of RDR2 are under the same app so their numbers are mixed together. Same reason Ubi’s titles arent on the chart

 

[fantomena]

Is Superdata reliable?

 

[lashman]

Is Superdata reliable?

lol, no

 

[Kyougar]

Maybe, but you cannot infer that from the tweet.

The first dude posts a picture about EGS exclusives, and concludes that RDR2 sold less copies that Untitled Goose Game

The second dude points out that the first dude should learn to read the title of the plot before drawing logical conclusions.

Edit:

But Tim's answer is wrong, RDR2 is not on the list because it is impossible to track and not because it isn't an exclusive.

 

[Wok]

But Tim's answer is wrong, RDR2 is not on the list because it is impossible to track and not because it isn't an exclusive.

It is possible to track the game, but it is impossible to guess the number of EGS copies: the game is not an EGS exclusive as it is also sold on the Rockstar store, so the number of copies which can be tracked is the total of both EGS and Rockstar copies.

The title of PlayTracker's graph is correct as well. The only person who is wrong is the dude who draws the conclusion that Red Dead Redemption 2 has sold fewer copies than Untitled Goose Game on EGS, and then does not question his method at all, as if the conclusion was not ridiculous. I mean, if someone told me that Untitled Goose Game had sold ~150k copies on EGS, my intuition would be that RDR2 should have sold at least ~150k copies too. I might be wrong, and I have no proof, but my a priori is that it is easier to sell RDR2 than UGG.

 

[Swenhir]

It is possible to track the game, but it is impossible to guess the number of EGS copies: the game is not an EGS exclusive as it is also sold on the Rockstar store, so the number of copies which can be tracked is the total of both EGS and Rockstar copies.

The title of PlayTracker's graph is correct as well. The only person who is wrong is the dude who draws the conclusion that Red Dead Redemption 2 has sold fewer copies than Untitled Goose Game on EGS, and then does not question his method at all, as if the conclusion was not ridiculous. I mean, if someone told me that Untitled Goose Game had sold ~150k copies on EGS, my intuition would be that RDR2 should have sold at least ~150k copies too. I might be wrong, and I have no proof, but my a priori is that it is easier to sell RDR2 than UGG.

I agree. Wasn't there a number floating around (400k?) sourced from some twitter account?

 

[Wok]

I agree. Wasn't there a number floating around (400k?) sourced from some twitter account?

It comes from SuperData, which is apparently a company analyzing data and selling ""market intelligence" to other companies, I tend to like articles at GamesIndustry.biz (it is owned by ReedPop, which organizes PAX) and one of their writers used the report provided by SuperData to write this:

Red Dead Redemption 2 sold 408k units on the Epic Games Store in its first month

Red Dead Redemption 2 launched on PC last month on both the Rockstar Games launcher and the Epic Games Store, with the …

www.gamesindustry.biz

 

[Kyougar]

It comes from SuperData, which is apparently a company analyzing data and selling ""market intelligence" to other companies, I tend to like articles at GamesIndustry.biz, and one of their writers used the data provided by SuperData to write this:

Red Dead Redemption 2 sold 408k units on the Epic Games Store in its first month

Red Dead Redemption 2 launched on PC last month on both the Rockstar Games launcher and the Epic Games Store, with the …

www.gamesindustry.biz

And the numbers come from...?

 

[Swenhir]

It comes from SuperData, which is apparently a company analyzing data and selling ""market intelligence" to other companies, I tend to like articles at GamesIndustry.biz (it is owned by ReedPop, which organizes PAX) and one of their writers used the report provided by SuperData to write this:

Red Dead Redemption 2 sold 408k units on the Epic Games Store in its first month

Red Dead Redemption 2 launched on PC last month on both the Rockstar Games launcher and the Epic Games Store, with the …

www.gamesindustry.biz

I'm not sure why SuperData has data and nobody else does and I don't trust GI all that much to be honest. It sounds a little fishy to me, even though the number itself is about where I'd peg it.

 

[Wok]

I'm not sure why SuperData has data and nobody else does and I don't trust GI all that much to be honest. It sounds a little fishy to me, even though the number itself is about where I'd peg it.

As far as I understand, they do not really have data, they have means to try to estimate it, like PlayTracker, and all these indie devs and publishers on Twitter.

The difference is that SuperData tries to sell their estimations and analysis at a high price. I guess they manage to sell it since they still exist.
Someone has to pay all these people, right?

 

[Swenhir]

As far as I understand, they do not really have data, they have means to try to estimate it, like PlayTracker, and all these indie devs and publishers on Twitter.

The difference is that SuperData tries to sell their estimations and analysis at a high price. I guess they manage to sell it since they still exist.
Someone has to pay all these people, right?

I have no idea, their continued existence seems irrelevant to the argument of reliability - though I'm glad for the people employed there. The lack of transparent sourcing - unlike PlayTracker - makes them rather dubious in my opinion.

I don't doubt that RDR2 has sold around half a million on EGS though. I do think it's a paltry amount, but I'm sure it will be 60% above what they expected .

 

[Wok]

I have no idea, their continued existence seems irrelevant to the argument of reliability - though I'm glad for the people employed there. The lack of transparent sourcing - unlike PlayTracker - makes them rather dubious in my opinion.

True. It does not mean that they are reliable.

It is interesting to see that there are people who are okay to pay a hefty price to have access to their data and analysis, so Superdata must be providing something of value to their eyes, a bit like SteamSpy and its $14,500 monthly revenue must be bringing something to the table to some people, despite the inaccuracy.

In comparison, PlayTracker is still trying to gain the trust of people with large pockets, despite a transparent sourcing method and being maybe more reliable.

 

[Nabs]

I think Superdata got bought out by Nielsen. They're the dummies who control all the numbers here in the states. They've literally ruined entire genre's of music by their shoddy number counts.

 

[Swenhir]

True. It does not mean that they are reliable.

It is interesting to see that there are people who are okay to pay a hefty price to have access to their data and analysis, so Superdata must be providing something of value to their eyes, a bit like SteamSpy and its $14,500 monthly revenue must be bringing something to the table to some people, despite the inaccuracy.

In comparison, PlayTracker is still trying to gain the trust of people with large pockets, despite a transparent sourcing method and being maybe more reliable.

I was going to have a spinal reflex to the hallowed arguments of "people are paying for it so it must be good" until I saw the rest of your spot.

I'm with you, it sucks... Especially given the later-demonstrated character and use of the data (cough Epic) by said Galyonkin. It could be argued that his patreons funded him privately for the privilege of him setting up Epic's Game Store.

 

[lashman]

It could be argued that his patreons funded him privately for the privilege of him setting up Epic's Game Store.

it did .... if it wasn't for steamspy Tim would never even consider hiring him

 

[bobnowhere]

It is quite funny that Epic's own stats state RDR2 has sold anywhere from 2-4 times as many copies on Steam as Epic even with a Months headstart.

 

[Swenhir]

it did .... if it wasn't for steamspy Tim would never even consider hiring him

I don't have a problem with Epic hiring him because of his work on SteamSpy. I have a problem with him not disclosing that he was hired, working on a steam competitor and taking the patreon money all the while. The conflict of interest - funding the business intelligence and market research for Epic - is blatant.

Unless I got my facts wrong, this is what he did - and is still doing?

 

[Alextended]

Tim himself could probably set up a patreon telling people shit goes toward the poor amazing underdog EGS and there would be people willing to pay, lol.

 

[RionaaM]

Loove how the-ed devs always use steamspy and rant only about steam's 30% int heir think takes

(Community reep of Raw Fury of ed Atomicrops)

What all these devs are forgetting is they are competing with thousands of other good games, both old and new. They compete with a lot of stuff I want to buy, and they also compete with a crapton of games I already own and haven't played yet. Then there's also the fact that, no matter how much time, money and effort they may have put into their game (which is probably A LOT), their game isn't inherently deserving of sales just for existing. When the supply exceeds the demand in such an obscene way, it's no wonder so many good -even great- games are going to fail. It's nobody's fault, really, it's just the way it is. I said it several times, jokingly, but I really believe it: if you're an indie dev and want to help games sell, stop making games. Otherwise you're contributing to an overcrowded market.

Of course, I don't want devs to stop making games. But I think it's wise to look at the bigger picture and consider that their game might fail due to no fault of their own. No amount of curation, reduced cuts or visibility will fix the deepest problem, which is that there are way too many games out there.

 

[lashman]

Unless I got my facts wrong, this is what he did - and is still doing?

he is, yes

Tim himself could probably set up a patreon telling people shit goes toward the poor amazing underdog EGS and there would be people willing to pay, lol.

you can absolutely 100% bet on it

 

[C-Dub]

I'm not being funny, but the industry is cutthroat. Does it suck that someone can't make a living on their hard work? Yeah, it does. I know that feeling.

But that's the nature of the beast and it ain't Steam's fault or Epic's fault, and neither of them are going to save the industry either. The reality is that there are more games than anyone has reasonable time to play, prices are being driven down, and the people who cry about wanting more curation are either arguing in bad faith, wanting to stifle the next big thing because the last big thing impacted sales on their previous release, or whose games would probably be victim of the curation in the first place.

Some games make a lot of money on Steam, and some developers make a lot of money through Epic moneyhats. 88/12, 70/30, over-curated, under-curated, all of this is purely window dressing to the problem that there are too many goddamn games and prices are being driven down.

 

[Swenhir]

I'm not being funny, but the industry is cutthroat. Does it suck that someone can't make a living on their hard work? Yeah, it does. I know that feeling.

But that's the nature of the beast and it ain't Steam's fault or Epic's fault, and neither of them are going to save the industry either. The reality is that there are more games than anyone has reasonable time to play, prices are being driven down, and the people who cry about wanting more curation are either arguing in bad faith, wanting to stifle the next big thing because the last big thing impacted sales on their previous release, or whose games would probably be victim of the curation in the first place.

Some games make a lot of money on Steam, and some developers make a lot of money through Epic moneyhats. 88/12, 70/30, over-curated, under-curated, all of this is purely window dressing to the problem that there are too many goddamn games and prices are being driven down.

I think that's a little harsh, and I have to offer an alternative viewpoint : that seeing the market as a single, huge thing is a mistake. I would instead rather see it as a collection of big categories (Action/Adventure, Shooter, etc) and a plethora of niches. Some of them are utterly undeserved (cough Space Sims) while others are a little saturated.

I want to strongly argue that if you have a dream, a vision for something, then that something probably has a place and an audience. Yes, it's hard to reach players and yes, many games fail because of a lack of visibility. But I would never have expected a game like Caves of Qud to exist, let alone find the players that love it to death today.

 

[Alextended]

I was ready to jump @ you before realizing you meant to write underserved...

 

[Swenhir]

I was ready to jump @ you before realizing you meant to write underserved...

Arrr.

 

[Myradeer]

Dividing a genre cateogry as separate customers is good idea, because that's what successful indie games managed to accomplish. If you target niche genre and have serviceable presentation, you're guaranteed visibility like case of Wargroove, Stardew Valley, Temtem... It doesn't have to be "abandoned" genre either - XCOM2-likes (Xenonauts, Phantom Doctrine, and Phoenix Point ...) get enough attention at announcement despite ocean of turn-based tactics being more "bloodier" with a giant leviathan (Firaxis XCOM2) still kicking around.

In contrast, if you're indie and your genre of choice is platformer or puzzle? Dev should expect to work really hard because THAT ocean is 100% blood and have not one, but hundreds of leviathans (Ori, Hollow Knight, Celeste etc.)

 

[madjoki]

I feel like someone forgot something.

 

[Kyougar]

I'm not being funny, but the industry is cutthroat. Does it suck that someone can't make a living on their hard work? Yeah, it does. I know that feeling.

But that's the nature of the beast and it ain't Steam's fault or Epic's fault, and neither of them are going to save the industry either. The reality is that there are more games than anyone has reasonable time to play, prices are being driven down, and the people who cry about wanting more curation are either arguing in bad faith, wanting to stifle the next big thing because the last big thing impacted sales on their previous release, or whose games would probably be victim of the curation in the first place.

Some games make a lot of money on Steam, and some developers make a lot of money through Epic moneyhats. 88/12, 70/30, over-curated, under-curated, all of this is purely window dressing to the problem that there are too many goddamn games and prices are being driven down.

We shouldn't forget that the industry WAS saved, by Valve. Thousands of devs wouldn't have the ability to make things they are passionate about without Valve. The current people who are constantly firing at Valve, do so because there is too much competition.

 

[Swenhir]

We shouldn't forget that the industry WAS saved, by Valve. Thousands of devs wouldn't have the ability to make things they are passionate about without Valve. The current people who are constantly firing at Valve, do so because there is too much competition.

That is true, but speaking of things that saved people, I think XBLA doesn't get the credit it deserves. By no means as far-reaching as Valve's efforts to be a widespread and accessible platform of distribution, MS still provided a hell of a kickstart to the indie scene.

I remember Wreckfest devs said early access saved their studio and Larian said early access for D: OS saved their studio.

Can't find the interviews/statements, it was many years ago, but I remember them saying it.

We live in a fantastic age for PC gaming and it's thanks to Valve.

Wasn't it Kickstarter for D:OS? I do remember backing it.

 

[fantomena]

I remember Wreckfest devs said early access saved their studio and Larian said early access for D: OS saved their studio.

Can't find the interviews/statements, it was many years ago, but I remember them saying it.

We live in a fantastic age for PC gaming and it's thanks to Valve.

 

[prudis]

heh ... soemthing is missing in this tweet

 

[C-Dub]

heh ... soemthing is missing in this tweet

They'll probably get 0% from EGS due to not hitting the advance. No reason to pimp it now.

 

[LittleDinamit]

If anyone still cares about the "RDR2 wasn't on PlayTracker graph" discussion, I only just saw it and can clarify that it was both reasons stated. I'd say Tim is 90% right in saying the game wasn't on the graph because it wasn't EGS exclusive.

Like Tim said - they don't consider RDR2 an exclusive and did not include it on their own infographic under "most popular exclusives" which was the basis for my graph. We also, like Lash said, couldn't separate EGS purchases from the rest even if it was included on the graph, but that's kind of also "because it isn't an exclusive" since that shortcoming of our methodology only matters because the game is available on other platforms. Same reason The Division 2 was not included.

 

[gabbo]

We shouldn't forget that the industry WAS saved, by Valve. Thousands of devs wouldn't have the ability to make things they are passionate about without Valve. The current people who are constantly firing at Valve, do so because there is too much competition.

By that same line of thinking, Valve also shares responsibility for the state of the pc gaming market as it stands now. Not that EGS is the saviour, it's definitely not and I would never try to insinuate as much. These are just companies after all and have their positives and negatives. And also, they are capitalist companies who don't care about me as a person, so on some level, fuck them both.

I feel like someone forgot something.

The games are still available on EGS if that's what you mean, if you mean the other consoles... woopsie daisy

 

[Mor]

All TWD games are back on Steam right now making them the first 2020 EGS exclusive to end the deal and as it's curious I want to note that it was exclusive just for 302 days (10 months if you prefer) which is surprising as those games were removed in January but not published on EGS until March last year.

 

[Rosenkrantz]

Skybound can fuck right off, this shit is more than a hundred rubles more expensive on Steam. No price drop, no sale, nothing. Fuck off twats, I won't pay more than the lowest price on EGS. I'm pretty good at waiting.

 

[Bonfires Down]

All TWD games are back on Steam right now making them the first 2020 EGS exclusive to end the deal and as it's curious I want to note that it was exclusive just for 302 days (10 months if you prefer) which is surprising as those games were removed in January but not published on EGS until March last year.

Removed in January? Maybe a contract loophole then that lets the 12 months start from Steam removal.

 

[Mor]

Removed in January? Maybe a contract loophole then that lets the 12 months start from Steam removal.

I have absolutely no idea what happened there but I swear I remember those game being removed in January and not being uploaded into EGS until early March, although I could be mistaken, can't be right 100% of the time, you know? hahaha ^^

 

[Wok]

Imagine if the exclusivity terms are written as "you need to stay off Steam for 12 months", and the guys behind the Walking Dead are like... :troll:

 

[Arsene]

All TWD games are back on Steam right now making them the first 2020 EGS exclusive to end the deal and as it's curious I want to note that it was exclusive just for 302 days (10 months if you prefer) which is surprising as those games were removed in January but not published on EGS until March last year.

Nope. They were removed from Steam in September and Final Season went up on EGS alongside the launch of Episode 3 on January 15th 2019.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190115190138/https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/product/walking-dead-final-season/home

Telltale pulls The Walking Dead’s final season from sale

Following the studio’s huge layoffs, the game’s future is up in the air

www.polygon.com

 

[prudis]

 

[gabbo]

Imagine if the exclusivity terms are written as "you need to stay off Steam for 12 months", and the guys behind the Walking Dead are like... :troll:

Technically it was Telltale proper who got removed, not Skybound at that point, right? Skybound probably didn't have the same kind of terms other egsclusives did due to the nature of the TWD licensing