I don't like the Epic game stores higher prices, lack of features and less options to purchase keys.
Oh - and the exclusives. I dont like that bollocks either.
Oh - and the exclusives. I dont like that bollocks either.
News Epic Games Store
- Thread starter Blizniak
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Admittedly when this was announced few months ago I could never have guessed that Epic would turn into the most poisonous and destructive force in PC market today.
Rebellion co-founder and CEO Jason Kingsley was featured in the latest MCVUK magazine:
https://wccftech.com/rebellion-ceo-on-egs-unlikely-wed-go-exclusive-but-its-hardly-any-effort-having-another-launcher-in-your-system/utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
It's nice to see a CEO having such a consumer-friendly attitude, at least at this moment in time.
However, I disagree on the tiring argument of 'just another launcher' and 'competition'. It's a shame that people who should know better still say this kind of stuff.
However, I disagree on the tiring argument of 'just another launcher' and 'competition'. It's a shame that people who should know better still say this kind of stuff.
This is about as good as we're likely to see from a dev/publisher in terms of exclusivity. That is to say, noncommittal about doing it and trying to come off as consumer-oriented.
And for a guy who runs a rather diverse media company, he's clearly bullshitting about monopolies. Reads like he just wanted to put a hot take in to make sure he's playing both sides
Sounds just like the 2K boss and doesn't understand what a monopoly is. Doesn't rule it out? Wants a offer from Tim more like, don't believe a word of it.
What is a monopoly?
1 - Lack of Substitutes - Are there any games on steam you can't get elsewhere, cheaper, not many and that is the choice of the individual seller not steam. One might argue Epic is more of a monopoly as some games can only be bought there.
2 - Barrier to Entry - Set up a website, take payment from people and supply a link to download. No one is stopping you, there is no artificial or actual scarcity anywhere in the system. Yes there is some amount of barrier to entry, all business does, but if you are creating something with no plan to sell it what are you doing?
3 - Competition - Devs are able to sell steam keys outside of steam, those stores are able to compete on prices, doesn't sound much like a monopoly to me. Devs are also able to sell on steam and provide keys to their own services on outside store cheaper that steam, still not a monopoly. Epic on the other has severely limited the outside market to only a few and then we come to...
4 - Price Maker - Steam allows devs/pubs to set the prices how they like, they do get a bit grumpy when the steam price is consistently much higher than available outside which is probably fair. Epic on the other hand seems to have done deals with outside stores and is setting prices, BL3 has no humble monthly discount, Ubisoft games cannot be bought outside of Epic and Uplay etc... One is setting prices, one isn't.
5 - Profits - Again any steam key bought outside of steam is an actual loss to steam. Is the the steam cut higher? Sure, but it's clear the Epic cut is completely unsustainable. Payment costs passed onto users, buying exclusives, paying for influencer promotion. Get in while it's good, take Epic for all they are worth just like the AAA companies have. Funny how those small indies that stanned so hard in the beginning are quiet now, epic doesn't really care about them.
What is a monopoly?
1 - Lack of Substitutes - Are there any games on steam you can't get elsewhere, cheaper, not many and that is the choice of the individual seller not steam. One might argue Epic is more of a monopoly as some games can only be bought there.
2 - Barrier to Entry - Set up a website, take payment from people and supply a link to download. No one is stopping you, there is no artificial or actual scarcity anywhere in the system. Yes there is some amount of barrier to entry, all business does, but if you are creating something with no plan to sell it what are you doing?
3 - Competition - Devs are able to sell steam keys outside of steam, those stores are able to compete on prices, doesn't sound much like a monopoly to me. Devs are also able to sell on steam and provide keys to their own services on outside store cheaper that steam, still not a monopoly. Epic on the other has severely limited the outside market to only a few and then we come to...
4 - Price Maker - Steam allows devs/pubs to set the prices how they like, they do get a bit grumpy when the steam price is consistently much higher than available outside which is probably fair. Epic on the other hand seems to have done deals with outside stores and is setting prices, BL3 has no humble monthly discount, Ubisoft games cannot be bought outside of Epic and Uplay etc... One is setting prices, one isn't.
5 - Profits - Again any steam key bought outside of steam is an actual loss to steam. Is the the steam cut higher? Sure, but it's clear the Epic cut is completely unsustainable. Payment costs passed onto users, buying exclusives, paying for influencer promotion. Get in while it's good, take Epic for all they are worth just like the AAA companies have. Funny how those small indies that stanned so hard in the beginning are quiet now, epic doesn't really care about them.
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Oh they know full well, but they need to appear neutral in this as much as they can.
For gamers/consumers - exclusivity: bad to epic/etc: monopolies bad, must be smashed.
Don't even need to outright state Steam is a monopoly when it's inferred so much.
i mean - i think at this point we might as well assume ubi are 100% done with steam (unless it's some trash even epic doesn't want to pay them for, like Starlink)
i certainly don't expect Wash_Doge 3 or AssVikings to be on steam ... ever ... not even after 12 months
Yep. I think Ubisoft will be the big 'winners' out of all this extra 'competition'.
Well someone has to be, as gamers certainly aren't
I keep seeing this point being made that competition will push Steam to improve, as it is was a sclerosis-ridden store. This misconception is probably the one that annoys me the most because it shows a complete disconnect with reality, which also means the person won't have to deal with the consequences of EGS's moneyhats.
I also hate how they reframe the argument in making it about effort. This was never what this was all about. The problem is all the features that are missing when using this platform and what the consequences of these tactics are for the market.
Also, the way they talk about these platforms by calling them launchers instead is quite disingenuous. They are so much more than that but calling them launchers changes the expectations and people who come from the console world or who do not know how good we have it with Steam don't know any better.
I also hate how they reframe the argument in making it about effort. This was never what this was all about. The problem is all the features that are missing when using this platform and what the consequences of these tactics are for the market.
Also, the way they talk about these platforms by calling them launchers instead is quite disingenuous. They are so much more than that but calling them launchers changes the expectations and people who come from the console world or who do not know how good we have it with Steam don't know any better.
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Agreed, and It's doubly dumb because no one ever bothers to explain how this sort of 'competition' is supposed to push Steam to improve. So a rival company exists that moneyhats games away from your own store. What kind of 'improvement' would get developers to say no to a big bag of cash?
I am convinced that the people arguing in favor of this sort of 'competition' belong to two main categories: A, people who don't buy games on PC and have no idea what they're talking about and B, industry people who have a vested interest in a bidding war between Epic and Valve. Hopefully Valve is smarter than that and they'll refuse to pay for exclusives.
As far as I understand, there are two major things devs would like to see improved on Steam:
- Lower fees, possibly no fees at all, since Steam doesn't really do anything does it, it's just the game dev IRS isn't it.
- A curated store that prevents 10k of rubbish games to flood the store every year, that they blame for their poor sales. Like folks blaming immigrants taking their jobs, without realizing that if their skills, education, and citizenship aren't enough to put their resume above the immigrants', it's probably not completely the immigrants fault
Indeed.
Valve works in its own bubble, as we've seen many-a-time. Sometimes that means they screw up, both with developers and customers, but it also means they won't be reactionary in terms of disruptions to their economy, with the idea that if they just continue to improve things for everyone at their own pace then they will weather any storm. It's worked so far, but it does come across as frustrating in the short term when someone pulls their future games from Steam (EA, Bethesda for a short while) or begins buying up exclusives, because it makes Valve look like they don't care when, quite frankly, I imagine the urge to "bite back" in the short term is strong inside the company.
And I don't buy into the view that Valve should just lower their cut to lure developers onto the store. That kind of race to the bottom will kill off Steam, EGS, GOG, GMG, Fanatical, and every other third party store that isn't there solely to sell the company's own games (i.e. uPlay, Origin and so on). And in the end, that will hurt everyone who isn't a AAA publisher, and I include Epic in that assessment.
Quite frankly, I don't understand developer concerns not being one myself, and while I want to see developers getting a good deal and staying in the black, I also think a strong PC games market based on competition is important. Sadly, in such a scheme, there will be losers. However, having siloed launchers selling exclusives games is, in the long run, going to damage the PC games market and open the doors to piracy once more; and that'd be far worse than some games succeeding and some failing as the current market is.
And if Valve does look at EGS and thinks "we need to react to what they're doing", the last thing they should do is moneyhat or reward AAA publishers for treating Steam customers with contempt. Quite frankly, Valve should just work to reinforce making Steam a better deal for the customer. Because every time they make Steam better, they decrease the chance of customers buying elsewhere, and more to the point, it pisses off Steam customers when a developer/publisher signs an exclusivity deal, thus toxifying the Epic/dev/publisher brand even further.
In the end, that's the only way the PC platform is going to get out of this mess: toxify the Epic brand, and toxify the brand of publishers/developers who sign these shitty deals. They need to eat so much shit not only on the games they signed exclusivity deals for, but on their future games too, to the point that they become a cautionary tale for others even contemplating doing the same.
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yeah, it's going to be awful in the long run ... if epic "proves" the majority of people don't give a fuck about anything else other than just launching the game - the entire PC market is going straight back to the early 2000s
it's just another launcher ... just another icon ... why are you so angry? can't you just click another icon on your desktop? you don't even have to pay for it, it's free ... /s
a bigger bag of cash, obviously ...
i'm going to be charitable here and say that most of those people DO in fact play games on PC ... occasionally, not as their main platform (not even remotely close to being their main platform), or are reviewers who don't have to pay for any of those games, or generally are just people who don't interact with steam beyond opening it and launching a game
either way - i'm going to say that just because they don't use any of that additional stuff steam has (and don't care enough to even do the most basic research on what EXACTLY steam offers to developers) doesn't mean it's "just a launcher" - even if they use it as one
i really really hope so .... i mean, don't get me wrong, i'm under no impression that volvo are immune to being assholes - i'm sure there's unfortunately a point at which epic piss them off enough for them to start doing the same shit ... i mean - most publishers and developers don't seem to give a fuck about any of this and will just go where the cash is - be it sales or just straight up moneyhats ... so it's not like volvo can just keep improving forever and idly sit on their asses watching epic steal all the games from under their nose by throwing bags of money at publishers ..... but i do hope we won't reach that point any time soon ... or ever, preferably
i mean - i suppose volvo could lower the fees a little bit for everyone .... to like 20-25% ... but something tells me that wouldn't be enough for anyone leaving (or complaining about) steam right now ... i can already see devs saying "but epic has 12% ... and discord has 10%"
correction: "a curated store that keeps other games out ... but not my game ... my game has to be able to get in"
yeah, i refuse to believe they all just sit there, sipping tea, like nothing happened
i think at this point it's pretty damn clear that both epic and all the publishers who have their own stores want ALL outside sales of their games to die ... so people don't have ANY other choice but to use their store and their store only, where they have ABSOLUTE control over everything, including the price ...
ubi are basically already doing this ... by going the "you have to connect your udontplay account to activate the game" route they're basically insuring THEY will be the ones controlling the price in all those stores ...
yeah, like i've been saying since they announced their shitty launcher (because let's face it - at this point it really is just a launcher ... they have ZERO features): we're going STRAIGHT back to the early 2000s ... and it makes me extremely sad
but that's EXACTLY what the publishers want .... i have very little doubt that the story about Deep Silver going to volvo for a better moneyhat offer after epic approached them is true ... because that's precisely what all those publishers want - for the stores to fight over the privilege of being allowed to sell their games
we can only hope that's what's going to happen ... it would be the best case scenario
unfortunately, looking at those "sales figures" we have so far - it doesn't seem like it's gonna happen
sadly
Except that Steam is a service for developers that gives them an outlet to sell their games at. However, Steam is pretty much a required outlet because not having your game on there is almost a guaranteed failure for your game and your company.
That comparison doesn't work. Hiring immigrants over domestic workers is prefered by companies because they're willing to work for lower pay, the company gets financial advatages due to the new "diversity", there's the cultural clash ranging from work ethic to life standards (There's a reason why regions like Africa, Asia, and Latin America developed the way they did in comparison to Europe and North America), there's the fact that these people have zero obligations to contribute to the country they now live in, and (If they're illegals) the company doesn't have to pay any tax money on these workers. The only part of the comparison that does work is the immigrants flooding into the country and destablizing the market and displacing the domestics. But, even then, that's where the comparison begins and ends because customers are able to comment, look at the product with the sum of it's parts, and soundly judge the product and publish the information out there about it's quality; meanwhile, you can't do the same thing with immigrants because "That's racist", and you can't get rid of people like you can a failing product (Unless you're a Communist country, where mass killings can almost count as the country's pastime).
Also, Steam IS a currated store. Have you not seen any of the news about them constantly banning visual novels every few days, despite their commitment to "let the public decide"? It's why companies like Top Hat are making their own store.
That's not entirely bad. What about the plethora of awesome titles that were released during the early 2000s in comparison to now?
well we wouldn't be going to THAT part of the early 2000s
just the big publisher support for the platform really
Gotta say, he had me in the first half. Then he had to say whole bullshit of 'just another launcher'.
This. Steam was improving before EGS and is improving right now independently of it. And I'll say, most people who have been throwing the 'competition' fit in both of your categories (other than being from the industry, that is). People who doesn't care about PC just want to see console-like wars for the sake of it.
Are his comments on crossplay between the different DD platforms still a thing especially with EGS now a presence?
Like, yeah originally MS walled things off and sometimes gog and Steam couldn't play against each other, but I had thought for the most part that kind of walled of multiplayer was long gone on PC? I had assumed this mostly fell on developers to implement proper netcode that isn't platform dependent,and in most cases Valve's api's allowed for that. Does EGS put up any barriers for that since they're so damn sparse as a store/platform?
I know it's not the main focus, but are we going to see games like Ashen or ... anything that has multiplayer or drop-in/out co-op where the player bases can't interact once it goes out onto other platforms unless devs completely recode their backend?
The only games selling well on EGS are games that have strong influence from outside Epic's ecosystem:
- Metro Exodus is a sequel to very popular Steam games
- WWZ has been marketed as the spiritual L4D sequel, a game published by Valve
- Satisfactory is Factorio in 3D
This is very similar to Origin and the Windows Store, we're only games/IP's/studios/concepts that gained popularity elsewhere are being successful.
The moment that games like Operencia and Outer Wilds become very successful on EGS, that's when I'm starting to worry.
yeah, i suppose you're right
but then again - epic are using those well-selling games (regardless of the reason) to "prove" egs is just as good as steam (if not better) ... it doesn't matter if it's true (we all know it's not) ... it only matters what they present it as ... and how many developers and publishers actually believe them
Yeah probably. But if devs and publishers realize that they aren't earning more by going EGS exclusive compared to releasing their games on Steam as well, I see EGS exclusivity dying as soon as Epic stops paying for it.
I do expect them to keep moneyhatting for many years tho. Why else would they have gathered even more money from external sources?
we can only hope
yeah, they're DEFINITELY not going to stop any time soon ... they might slow down and start ignoring indies ... but they'll almost definitely continue to moneyhat AAA games as much as they possibly can, i have zero doubts about that
I think I'd prefer it if Ubisoft just went Uplay exclusive for their games rather than this EGS rubbish. I dont think anybody minds first party exclusives (although it would be nice if they wernt a thing on PC) but by offering an EGS purchase option it just feels like lip service to keeping options for customers. They have a big enough following for their many games that would buy on Uplay if there was no other option. The Epic money must be phenomenal.
In theory, any dev being moneyhatted will automatically make more than if it was just relying on multiple store sales (lest it absolutely smash expectations and be a runway hit on those stores) because each sale is just gravy on top of whatever formula Epic uses for their moneyhat.
It'll be the next game if they don't get a nice upfront cheque or whenever that moneyhate runs out that devs realize
If they ever realize it at all.
Epic is adding Humble Bundle integration to EGS in “July” so no more keys on Humble after that.
Remember when they tried that with Steam and everyone hated it? Epic doesn’t.
Remember when they tried that with Steam and everyone hated it? Epic doesn’t.
Epic isn't trying to lock down pc gaming, not at all, they have said they want an open pc platform after all.
Ah, yes. "Committed" to "open" digital storefronts for "everyone".
Developers can decide to release their games only on EGS because of the lower cut. No doubt Epic is counting on that to happen.
Im interested in seeing some sales figures for the non-AAA titles (not that we will). I wonder if Devs get to know how many people are buying from EGS. 70% of some sales is better than 88% of no sales. It would be really interesting to see the numbers.
No doubt the moneyhats are there to prove that games not on Steam can still sell. I'm expecting postmortems of games 6-24 months from now that will paint a muddy picture of whether it's a long-term success or not, largely revolving around sales of the exclusives and/or sequels and the publisher's other games.
Despite strong sales on some of these games, supposedly, the verdict is still out on whether they can be considered a success. The success of a game depends on a lot of factors, not just the first month's sales.
Will developers be happy 2-6 months in when their game is getting zero exposure as the next big thing on EGS is out and there's literally no way for them to get their game in people's faces without expensive social media marketing campaigns? Will people even know when an EGS game they own gets a significant title update or DLC? And when everyone's cash is going down the black hole that is the Steam Summer Sale, will the likes of Deep Silver be kicking themselves for not having the game on Steam for a 10-25% discount and all the extra revenue that comes with it?
And then there's the long-term effects. Damage to publisher/developer brand having a knock-on effect on sales of other games or sequels will be an interesting one to watch. Not to mention the long-term impact that Epic Store has on itself. The thing is garbage, and Epic doesn't have the luxury Steam had of being shit on day 1 because there are vastly superior alternatives out there. People who bought an EGS exclusive now may think twice about buying another one if they had a lackluster experience, and that will play itself out in sales of the second and third waves of exclusives.
I think this is far from over, despite the fact that Epic has spoke of the success of a handful of their exclusives, and even then did so with weasel words. And even if the games EGS snatches as an exclusive turn a profit thanks to the moneyhats, are the sales, 88% cut and consumer backlash going to make it worth doing so without Epic's money?
Obviously the exclusives piss me off, but I'm still positive consumers will come out on top in the long run. When Valve reacts, they will do so in a way that benefits their customers, so I think that'll be a net positive to us. My only real concern right now is that there's presently no organised consumer boycott of EGS. Instead, there's just a bunch of dislocated online communities getting angry in Steam reviews and on social media, which gives the less honest members of the games press (not to mention all the astroturfers, which are getting really bad on ResetEra, even compared to how it was on GAF) carte blanche to smear us all as sinophobic conspiracy nuts on the basis of a few Reddit posts.
The Outer Wilds is now officially confirmed to be EGS timed exclusive:
Outer Wilds Crowdfunding Campaign
Outer Wilds Crowdfunding Campaign
Really cool of them to wait 5 months before telling backers this. Scumbags.
Just another reason added to my list of why to not back things, even if they look really promising. Shooting themselves in the foot.
Imagine using crowdfunding for your game just to fuck over all the people that supported your game when you needed it the most. That's one way to treat people that helped you bring your project to life...that's for sure.
Of course IGN is getting in on this (IGN owns Humble Bundle): How the Epic Games Store Is the First Real Threat to Steam - IGN (Archive)
You do realize that last time customers of the game industry "organized" and arranged an attack on the corruption in it, they were banned from just about every forum and imageboard on the net, right?
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Well, I was a Phoenix Point backer. I know how that feels.
For people like Julian Gollop it's apparently easy to spit on the people who supported his efforts for 30+ years, in exchange for a short term benefit.
Fine by me. I requested a refund (the service they used to send me my refund clearly deducted from the amount received hidden fees, on top of exchange rate loses, so they ended up making me lose €5 or so; but, I won't even bother to engage with them any further), and I'm never supporting anything that carries his name ever again.
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Outer Wilds was a day one purchase. Now it is just another game i will get in a Steam sale next year.
Now it is just another game i will get in a Steam sale next year.That really sucks.Well, I was a Phoenix Point backer. I know how that feels.
For people like Julian Gollop it's apparently easy to spit on the people who supported his efforts for 30+ years, in exchange for a short term benefit.
Fine by me. I requested a refund (the service they used to send me my refund clearly deducted from the amount received hidden fees, on top of exchange rate loses, so they ended up making me lose €5 or so; but, I won't even bother to engage with them any further), and I'm never supporting anything that carries his name ever again.
Considering how much I love XCOM, I feel like I really dodged a bullet with that one.
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Well, that's great for them.Outer Wilds was a day one purchase.
They get Epic's money, and they get your money next year.
If you really want to "punish" these companies and hurt them, don't support them.
There are so many other alternatives, you don't need to reward a company that pulls crap like this.
Crowdfunded games going EGS Exclusive at the last minute is especially scummy and they immediately go onto my 'might buy when very deeply discounted but most likely will pass' list.
I was well up for Phoenix Point, i love XCom type games. Outer Wilds also looks right up my street but ive realised that no game has enough draw for me to want to reward these shitty deals.
I was well up for Phoenix Point, i love XCom type games. Outer Wilds also looks right up my street but ive realised that no game has enough draw for me to want to reward these shitty deals.
Hopefully not the targeted harassment campaign masked as "concern" about "ethics"?
